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	<title>Comments on: The Sun: how not to win friends or influence bloggers</title>
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	<link>http://www.garyandrews.net/2010/06/15/the-sun-how-not-to-win-friends-or-influence-bloggers/</link>
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		<title>By: Marketing via Aggregation, Filtering and Curation &#8211; Tools and Resources</title>
		<link>http://www.garyandrews.net/2010/06/15/the-sun-how-not-to-win-friends-or-influence-bloggers/comment-page-1/#comment-15806</link>
		<dc:creator>Marketing via Aggregation, Filtering and Curation &#8211; Tools and Resources</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2011 19:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.garyandrews.net/?p=1070#comment-15806</guid>
		<description>[...] The Sun: how not to win friends or influence bloggers [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Sun: how not to win friends or influence bloggers [...]</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2010-06-19</title>
		<link>http://www.garyandrews.net/2010/06/15/the-sun-how-not-to-win-friends-or-influence-bloggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4082</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2010-06-19</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.garyandrews.net/?p=1070#comment-4082</guid>
		<description>[...] The Sun: how not to win friends or influence bloggers Kevin: Gary Andrews looks at how The Sun in the UK played an own goal in its attempts to engage bloggers to flesh out its coverage. After contacting bloggers and asking whether they would like to participate in their coverage, The Sun went ahead whether the bloggers gave permission or not. Chris Taylor from &quot;It&#039;ll Be Off wrote to Gary: &quot;I want to make it abundantly clear to everyone: I have nothing to do with this. I want nothing to do with this. And I am furious that the good(ish) name of my little blog, that ceased to be a concern some six months ago, is being used by the worst of all tabloids as some fucking publicity machine for their horrendous sweepstake generating iPhone app, and their even more horrendous newspaper.” Rights seem only to apply to media companies not to content creators. (tags: blogs socialmedia fuckwittery copyright WorldCup) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Sun: how not to win friends or influence bloggers Kevin: Gary Andrews looks at how The Sun in the UK played an own goal in its attempts to engage bloggers to flesh out its coverage. After contacting bloggers and asking whether they would like to participate in their coverage, The Sun went ahead whether the bloggers gave permission or not. Chris Taylor from &quot;It&#039;ll Be Off wrote to Gary: &quot;I want to make it abundantly clear to everyone: I have nothing to do with this. I want nothing to do with this. And I am furious that the good(ish) name of my little blog, that ceased to be a concern some six months ago, is being used by the worst of all tabloids as some fucking publicity machine for their horrendous sweepstake generating iPhone app, and their even more horrendous newspaper.” Rights seem only to apply to media companies not to content creators. (tags: blogs socialmedia fuckwittery copyright WorldCup) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.garyandrews.net/2010/06/15/the-sun-how-not-to-win-friends-or-influence-bloggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4069</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jun 2010 01:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.garyandrews.net/?p=1070#comment-4069</guid>
		<description>To add some more detail to all this, when The Sun approached us to tell us about the game, they didn&#039;t ask us permission to use our logo on their website. In all honesty, I don&#039;t mind, simply because they are using it alongside our name. If someone takes our logo, removes our website name to put his own and starts using it on his blog, that would be different, but for this particular issue, seriously, I don&#039;t mind.

I always like to give the benefit of the doubt when required and I want to believe The Sun did it in good faith, just like us when we used Arsenal&#039;s logo in our header which we had to remove when DataCo asked us to do it on behalf of the club.

From what I understand The Sun immediately removed the logos of the unhappy bloggers and besides I received an e-mail two days ago asking me whether I would still want to be part of the game.

Chris,
The Gunning Hawk</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To add some more detail to all this, when The Sun approached us to tell us about the game, they didn&#8217;t ask us permission to use our logo on their website. In all honesty, I don&#8217;t mind, simply because they are using it alongside our name. If someone takes our logo, removes our website name to put his own and starts using it on his blog, that would be different, but for this particular issue, seriously, I don&#8217;t mind.</p>
<p>I always like to give the benefit of the doubt when required and I want to believe The Sun did it in good faith, just like us when we used Arsenal&#8217;s logo in our header which we had to remove when DataCo asked us to do it on behalf of the club.</p>
<p>From what I understand The Sun immediately removed the logos of the unhappy bloggers and besides I received an e-mail two days ago asking me whether I would still want to be part of the game.</p>
<p>Chris,<br />
The Gunning Hawk</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2010-06-16 &#171; Fear and Loathing in Glasvegas</title>
		<link>http://www.garyandrews.net/2010/06/15/the-sun-how-not-to-win-friends-or-influence-bloggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4026</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2010-06-16 &#171; Fear and Loathing in Glasvegas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 23:05:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.garyandrews.net/?p=1070#comment-4026</guid>
		<description>[...] The Sun: how not to win friends or influence bloggers » Gary Andrews It does a disservice: to the bloggers involved who said no to the original request, to the readers who will assume that these blogs endorse The Sun, and to any hardworking PR who has spent ages building relations with these blogs for a very tiny mention, especially PRs from other papers. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Sun: how not to win friends or influence bloggers » Gary Andrews It does a disservice: to the bloggers involved who said no to the original request, to the readers who will assume that these blogs endorse The Sun, and to any hardworking PR who has spent ages building relations with these blogs for a very tiny mention, especially PRs from other papers. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>http://www.garyandrews.net/2010/06/15/the-sun-how-not-to-win-friends-or-influence-bloggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4015</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:27:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.garyandrews.net/?p=1070#comment-4015</guid>
		<description>The UK doesn&#039;t have &quot;fair use&quot;, it has a different thing called &quot;fair dealing&quot;, which is a much narrower set of allowed uses (journalism/criticism/academia/etc), which I don&#039;t think this falls under. So potentially there&#039;s a copyright claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The UK doesn&#8217;t have &#8220;fair use&#8221;, it has a different thing called &#8220;fair dealing&#8221;, which is a much narrower set of allowed uses (journalism/criticism/academia/etc), which I don&#8217;t think this falls under. So potentially there&#8217;s a copyright claim.</p>
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		<title>By: James T</title>
		<link>http://www.garyandrews.net/2010/06/15/the-sun-how-not-to-win-friends-or-influence-bloggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4013</link>
		<dc:creator>James T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.garyandrews.net/?p=1070#comment-4013</guid>
		<description>Yeah, we&#039;re not in the UK either. Yet apparently gave score predictions for some early games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, we&#8217;re not in the UK either. Yet apparently gave score predictions for some early games.</p>
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		<title>By: It was The Sun online wot lost it (AKA readers being stung by Sun iPad app?) - Contently Managed &#8211; Digital PR, Social Media, Traditional PR Solutions and Strategy</title>
		<link>http://www.garyandrews.net/2010/06/15/the-sun-how-not-to-win-friends-or-influence-bloggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4010</link>
		<dc:creator>It was The Sun online wot lost it (AKA readers being stung by Sun iPad app?) - Contently Managed &#8211; Digital PR, Social Media, Traditional PR Solutions and Strategy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.garyandrews.net/?p=1070#comment-4010</guid>
		<description>[...] So for tabloid readers in Scotland it&#8217;s still wide-open for someone to nip in and still The Sun&#8217;s glory (though The Sun is doing really well at cheesing off the blogger community according to this piece). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] So for tabloid readers in Scotland it&#8217;s still wide-open for someone to nip in and still The Sun&#8217;s glory (though The Sun is doing really well at cheesing off the blogger community according to this piece). [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.garyandrews.net/2010/06/15/the-sun-how-not-to-win-friends-or-influence-bloggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4008</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.garyandrews.net/?p=1070#comment-4008</guid>
		<description>There are two issues regarding copyright. First is ownership. The Sun can claim fair usage in regards to using a copyright logo. Reproducing any of the blog content, however, could be seen as going beyond fair usage.

The second are moral rights. These are a little less cut and dried, but the upshot is, if The Sun have asked permission for the involvement of an organisation in a project, and they have declined; or the organisation has not been contacted, they could be in breach of the blogs moral rights

These means: &quot;to object to derogatory treatment of the work or film which amounts to a distortion or mutilation or is otherwise prejudicial to the honour or reputation of the author or director.&quot;

The blog that didn&#039;t respond may have inadvertently agreed. An active NO is a stronger position to argue from than I didn&#039;t reply and assumed that meant no. 

Either way, the paper has shown a disregard for the blogs involved and they aren&#039;t behaving in a manner I would expect from a journalist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are two issues regarding copyright. First is ownership. The Sun can claim fair usage in regards to using a copyright logo. Reproducing any of the blog content, however, could be seen as going beyond fair usage.</p>
<p>The second are moral rights. These are a little less cut and dried, but the upshot is, if The Sun have asked permission for the involvement of an organisation in a project, and they have declined; or the organisation has not been contacted, they could be in breach of the blogs moral rights</p>
<p>These means: &#8220;to object to derogatory treatment of the work or film which amounts to a distortion or mutilation or is otherwise prejudicial to the honour or reputation of the author or director.&#8221;</p>
<p>The blog that didn&#8217;t respond may have inadvertently agreed. An active NO is a stronger position to argue from than I didn&#8217;t reply and assumed that meant no. </p>
<p>Either way, the paper has shown a disregard for the blogs involved and they aren&#8217;t behaving in a manner I would expect from a journalist.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://www.garyandrews.net/2010/06/15/the-sun-how-not-to-win-friends-or-influence-bloggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4006</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.garyandrews.net/?p=1070#comment-4006</guid>
		<description>Jon, I think from a lot of bloggers perspectives, it&#039;s more the association with The Sun that they object to (and I&#039;ve seen there&#039;s one Liverpool blog on there. I wonder if they said yes). That might be because of Hillsborough, or it might be because they just don&#039;t want their blog to be associated with The Sun (or implied to be endorsing it). A lot of the blogs have worked very hard to present themselves as very independent from the likes of The Sun. It evokes quite strong reactions.

(Also, I&#039;m not really trying to point score against Murdoch here, other than a reference to his comment about Google, which is just something I disagree with in general. I&#039;m under no illusions that any more than about half a dozen people read this blog and whatever I write on here will make a blind bit of difference. I just don&#039;t think what they did was right - and as I&#039;m involved in the footballing blogging community, I blogged about it. I&#039;d have done the same had it been another tabloid or broadsheet).

I guess it&#039;s also the general principle of it as well - it&#039;s kind of bad manners to ask &quot;Do you want to get involved in this?&quot; and then do it anyway regardless. As I said in the post, there&#039;s better ways of doing this.

I don&#039;t want to speak on behalf of the other bloggers involved - I&#039;m sure some don&#039;t mind the extra traffic and some would rather stick to their principles.

That said, a lot of football bloggers are generally quite accommodating, to a point, of the mainstream media. But they also have the right to say no to them. It was also a good opportunity for The Sun to build some links and enhance its reputation in the football blogging community and it would have been nice to see them at least try.

In the whole grand scheme of things, you&#039;re right. This really isn&#039;t a particularly big issue and I doubt The Sun or their readers, or even some of the blogs&#039; own readers will care. But it still doesn&#039;t mean that they were lazy and wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon, I think from a lot of bloggers perspectives, it&#8217;s more the association with The Sun that they object to (and I&#8217;ve seen there&#8217;s one Liverpool blog on there. I wonder if they said yes). That might be because of Hillsborough, or it might be because they just don&#8217;t want their blog to be associated with The Sun (or implied to be endorsing it). A lot of the blogs have worked very hard to present themselves as very independent from the likes of The Sun. It evokes quite strong reactions.</p>
<p>(Also, I&#8217;m not really trying to point score against Murdoch here, other than a reference to his comment about Google, which is just something I disagree with in general. I&#8217;m under no illusions that any more than about half a dozen people read this blog and whatever I write on here will make a blind bit of difference. I just don&#8217;t think what they did was right &#8211; and as I&#8217;m involved in the footballing blogging community, I blogged about it. I&#8217;d have done the same had it been another tabloid or broadsheet).</p>
<p>I guess it&#8217;s also the general principle of it as well &#8211; it&#8217;s kind of bad manners to ask &#8220;Do you want to get involved in this?&#8221; and then do it anyway regardless. As I said in the post, there&#8217;s better ways of doing this.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to speak on behalf of the other bloggers involved &#8211; I&#8217;m sure some don&#8217;t mind the extra traffic and some would rather stick to their principles.</p>
<p>That said, a lot of football bloggers are generally quite accommodating, to a point, of the mainstream media. But they also have the right to say no to them. It was also a good opportunity for The Sun to build some links and enhance its reputation in the football blogging community and it would have been nice to see them at least try.</p>
<p>In the whole grand scheme of things, you&#8217;re right. This really isn&#8217;t a particularly big issue and I doubt The Sun or their readers, or even some of the blogs&#8217; own readers will care. But it still doesn&#8217;t mean that they were lazy and wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Siany</title>
		<link>http://www.garyandrews.net/2010/06/15/the-sun-how-not-to-win-friends-or-influence-bloggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4005</link>
		<dc:creator>Siany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:26:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.garyandrews.net/?p=1070#comment-4005</guid>
		<description>I did some digging, and er, found The Sun&#039;s guidelines on THEIR logos, because that&#039;s FUN :-)

http://www.sun.com/policies/trademarks/

And for those of you too lazy for clicking: &quot;Third parties may not use any Sun logo for any purpose without a license to do so.&quot;

I&#039;m pretty sure that it&#039;s &#039;accepted&#039; to use a public logo as long as you&#039;re not writing something negative about someone, but if the Sun don&#039;t like it, then they should really stick by their own rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did some digging, and er, found The Sun&#8217;s guidelines on THEIR logos, because that&#8217;s FUN <img src='http://www.garyandrews.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><a href="http://www.sun.com/policies/trademarks/" rel="nofollow">http://www.sun.com/policies/trademarks/</a></p>
<p>And for those of you too lazy for clicking: &#8220;Third parties may not use any Sun logo for any purpose without a license to do so.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure that it&#8217;s &#8216;accepted&#8217; to use a public logo as long as you&#8217;re not writing something negative about someone, but if the Sun don&#8217;t like it, then they should really stick by their own rules.</p>
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